New EVP at NORWEP

Innopodden with Ann Christin Andersen, advisor and CEO of 4ADA AS.

She meets our CEO, Håkon Haugli.

The host is Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann.

Host: According to Bob Dylan, the answer is blowin' in the wind. Our guest on Innopodden probably agrees. Ann Christin Andersen has 30 years of experience in oil and gas, but now her main focus is offshore wind. Can the supplier industry adapt as she has done? Does Norway still have an opportunity to become a leading offshore wind nation, as the government intends? Or are we too late? Ann Christin Andersen has served on the boards of several Norwegian and international companies and has been a strategic adviser for our Entry programme for offshore wind. So it is time to welcome her to Innopodden with Håkon Haugli and me, Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann.

Welcome to Innopodden, Ann Christin Andersen. It's great to have you here.

Andersen: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Host: You have held a range of roles in numerous companies and organisations, including Chair of the Board at the Port of Drammen, Board Member and Chair of the Board at Glitre Energi, and Board Member at Maersk Drilling. You have also worked for Technip FMC for 18 years and Kongsberg for seven years, among many other roles.

We won't go into detail about all of this, but can you give us an example of something you are particularly proud to have achieved during your many years in business and organisational life?

Andersen: If you were asking about my personal life, I would have to mention my two wonderful daughters, whom I am incredibly proud of. But in business and organisational life, I have experienced many ups and downs that have both made me proud and helped me grow enormously as a person. If I were to highlight a recent example, though, I and many others have now devoted three years of my life to a merger process

between Glitre Energi and Agder Energi. We have now become Å. It has been a long and rewarding process on behalf of our owners. The company is owned by 47 municipalities together with Statkraft. I was incredibly proud at Sørlandshallen in December, when we celebrated becoming a wonderful letter called Å.

Feeling the energy from all our employees. And I am also very proud to be part of the journey ahead as Chair of the Board at Å Energi.

Host: You've managed to come up with the shortest possible company name!

Andersen: Yes, and internationally, it's a unique letter.

Host: Yes. You work extensively with energy, and particularly with wind power at the moment. When we spoke beforehand, you used a term I hadn't heard before, but which I understand is central to the areas you work in: the energy trilemma. Tell us what it means and why it matters.

Andersen: It is about finding the right balance between three forces pulling in slightly different directions. The first is decarbonisation, or the green transition as we call it here in Norway, where the energy transition involves moving from fossil fuels to zero-emission renewable energy to meet the 1.5-degree target. We have talked a great deal about this in recent years.
The second force pulling in a slightly different direction is security of supply. This issue has perhaps not been on the agenda for very long, at least not until recently, because we have had enough gas and enjoyed relative peace. But we have now created an energy system that depends on stable supplies across national borders. Today, we find ourselves in an extraordinary situation because of Putin's war of aggression,

where he is using the suspension of energy supplies to Europe as a weapon. We also have a system affected by extreme weather, so when drought strikes, our reservoirs dry up. This means our security of supply is now under threat, and the issue has risen to the top of the agenda.

The third factor in this trilemma is access to affordable energy. Historically, electricity prices in Norway have been very low, but energy shortages have now led to an electricity price crisis.

It is little comfort to hear that things are worse in other countries when it is your own finances that are affected. The government's measures to reduce electricity costs help you and me, but we expect more. Norway also has a long tradition of energy-intensive industries that need large amounts of power, such as fertiliser and aluminium production. We need to ensure that our industries have enough power because, as we know, industry follows energy. Balancing these three factors is what we call the energy trilemma.

Host: But are these three necessarily interconnected?

Andersen: Yes, they are connected, but when you have enough power, you do not worry about prices or security of supply. Your main focus is then on accelerating the green transition.

For the first time, Norway will face a significant power deficit as we approach the end of this decade. This is a new situation that we need to address. We therefore need more green energy, faster, to balance this trilemma.

Haugli: I see only two answers to this challenge. One is to produce more, and the other is to use less. There are no shortcuts, and it is vital to keep that in mind. It is not only Norway that needs to produce more or use less; the whole world must do the same. Norwegian businesses have a unique opportunity to contribute to the energy transition in Norway and provide solutions internationally. I am sure we will return to that, but our current situation really gives us pause for thought.

Host: We need to talk to you about solutions not only for Norway, but for the world. You highlight wind power in particular. When will wind power become one of Norway's major sources of energy?

Andersen: Let me start by saying that there are three forms of wind power. First, there is onshore wind. Today, we have 64 wind farms and 1,100 turbines across Norway, producing 15 terawatt-hours – equivalent to around 10 per cent of our current hydropower production.

Then there is fixed-bottom wind, where you install an offshore wind turbine on the seabed. The water cannot be too deep, of course. We have just opened Sørlige Nordsjø 2 here in Norway for applications. Fixed-bottom offshore wind is competitive today, with a number of installations already operating across Europe, and now it is coming to Norway as well.
Then there is floating offshore wind. That is the third type. You can install a floating offshore wind turbine almost anywhere. But the solutions have not yet progressed through all the necessary stages of technological development, so they are not yet fully competitive in terms of what we call the levelised cost of energy. The cost curve has not fallen far enough yet, but it will. Norway is blessed with excellent wind resources on land and, above all, at sea, where it blows… I will not swear on the podcast, but it blows an incredible amount offshore. We have a tremendous opportunity to harness offshore wind power along Norway's extensive coastline, and when you install a turbine at sea, you can also build it much taller and larger. So, to answer your question: when will wind power become one of our major sources of energy? Onshore wind development has come to a halt. No more onshore wind turbines will be built unless local authorities want them in their municipalities. Not everyone agrees with me that they can actually be quite beautiful to look at. They can be disruptive. Offshore, the government has allocated areas and says it aims to allocate enough to produce 30 gigawatts by 2040.

By then, the areas will have been allocated. Over the next 10–20 years, offshore wind could generate as much power as hydropower does today. That would make it a major source of energy. Norway is an energy nation, and today we export energy in the form of gas through pipelines to Europe. To put the scale needed for offshore wind into perspective, we currently export 1,500 terawatt-hours of energy to Europe – ten times our hydropower output.

A considerable number of offshore wind farms will need to be built over the next 30–50 years if Norway is to remain a major producer of power and energy after the green transition.

Host: Yes, is it possible to build enough to replace those gas exports?

Andersen: Of course it is possible. It just means that you may not be able to deliver the energy as electricity, because then you would probably use up all the copper in the world. You would need to deliver it in the form of hydrogen, for example. Or you could deliver it in the form of the products I mentioned earlier: energy-intensive products such as aluminium, fertiliser and other goods. Green steel may emerge, which requires a great deal of energy. We can use that energy. This is about broadening our horizons and thinking big.

And we need to remain relevant. Oil and gas will be with us for another 30–50 years. But after that, we could have enough offshore wind farms to supply green energy.

Host: And particularly when it comes to floating offshore wind, we like to think that Norway's extensive experience in offshore operations gives us an advantage. Does it really?

Haugli: Without a doubt, I would say. We believe that floating offshore wind is where Norway has the greatest potential. Not to rule out the other two forms, but when it comes to floating offshore wind, we have truly unique advantages. No other country has the same extreme conditions and offshore expertise as we do. But there are some points worth considering. The very first floating offshore wind turbine was Norwegian. It was installed in the fjord off Haugesund or Karmøy – I cannot remember the exact year now, but it was quite some time ago. For a long time, it was the only one, and then another was built. Until fairly recently, we had those two. Now a few more floating offshore wind turbines have been built.

Host: … at Hywind Tampen …

Haugli: That's right, and ambitions are now high. We can no longer say that Norway is a world leader in floating offshore wind, but I maintain that we have the best starting point in the world because of the supplier industry we have built up around oil and gas over many, many years.

But we urgently need to – how do they put it in English? Get our act together. What's that in Norwegian? Get things moving.

Host: Do you agree with that assessment, Ann Christin?

Andersen: Yes, and we do not necessarily need to be the leading offshore wind nation. As you say, offshore wind is already a well-established industry around the world, not least in our neighbouring countries and waters. But the fact that Norway now has historically high electricity prices and is heading towards a power deficit is a compelling reason for change. We therefore need to develop new renewable energy faster than current plans envisage. And I believe Norway should remain an energy nation after the green transition.

Haugli: Agreed. I think that is one perspective, and the North Sea could be a fantastic source of both innovation and energy production. But Norwegian businesses also have the potential to contribute to the major offshore wind developments that will take place in other parts of the world. Through our presence in Asia, we see plans taking shape in Japan, Korea and elsewhere. The same applies to both the east and west coasts of North America, and Norwegian companies are well positioned to provide solutions there too. This is an energy... The times we live in are incredibly fascinating. We are in the midst of a major transformation of the world's energy systems. I have no doubt that Norway will remain an energy nation. The only real question is how. Where will we contribute? Both geographically and, not least, in terms of business and industry.

Host: And that is the question for you, Ann Christin: How can we make this a success?

Andersen: There are two things I would like to address. The first is how we mobilise Norwegian businesses and the fantastic supplier industry you mentioned. We need to pursue projects as they emerge, and I believe that to succeed in offshore wind, we must mobilise the supplier industry not just to wait for Norway's offshore wind market, but to take part in projects abroad. When the domestic market opens up in Norway, you need to be competitive – and that takes practice. You cannot become a world champion in your sleep; you have to train. I therefore believe that Norway's supplier industry is well positioned to capture 10 per cent of the global market. We can already see this – slightly less in fixed-bottom offshore wind and slightly more in floating wind. I also believe that to mobilise Norwegian businesses, we need to share market intelligence about the opportunities available internationally. Succeeding also requires a demanding business model. Technology does not trump everything. You need scale and you need to bring costs down.

It is also important that we encourage businesses to look beyond the enormous workload facing suppliers, particularly those currently operating in oil and gas. A whole series of plans for development and operation (PDOs) have been approved for projects in the North Sea. Many suppliers are fully occupied with deliveries to the oil and gas sector. They also need to start exploring opportunities in this field and in international markets. We have a major role to play here, and I can return to how the Entry programme fits into this.

Haugli: This is very exciting. We have worked with you and the Federation of Norwegian Industries. We have taken over responsibility for a programme developed by the Federation that addresses exactly what you have just raised.

Brede: The offshore wind market is fundamentally different for the oil and gas supply industry. One thing we have seen is that it requires a completely different set of commercial skills and involves entirely different commercial processes. Commercial discussions move much faster and take place more frequently. You need to stay much closer to the process. The tendering regime is completely different from what the oil and gas industry is used to. I am getting into the details of the programme now, but what do you think is critical here? What do we need to get right for an individual company to succeed in making this transition?

Andersen: It is about having the courage to make strategic choices. In some areas, investment in infrastructure is needed to remain competitive.

It is about supply chains and staying relevant. That may mean investing in quayside facilities or machinery. Ultimately, you need to move into mass production. A great many wind turbines will be built, so you need to produce the same thing repeatedly and bring down costs. You must be prepared to take responsibility for large volumes. This means getting business leaders' attention and encouraging them to adopt a new strategy. I believe it is important to understand how our business model works. In oil and gas contracting, we have largely made the impossible possible by reaching down into reservoirs and developing the technology to extract their resources; a one per cent improvement creates enormous value. Here, however, the focus is on industrialisation without taking on too much technological risk. You need to de-risk technology development in advance and deliver at scale. That is exciting, and some companies are already succeeding. I believe the Entry programme is a collaborative project based on the recognition that this expertise is currently fragmented across organisations in Norway, including NORWEP, the Federation of Norwegian Industries and us at Innovation Norway. By bringing it together in a programme that is now available to everyone, the next step is to encourage people to take the courses. I have helped launch it through in-person events, because attracting companies' attention during a busy working day is not easy. You cannot simply tell them there is an excellent online course and that they just need to set aside time to complete it. You need to guide people through it and, importantly, ensure that these organisations connect with one another. You may not succeed entirely on your own. You will succeed by working with others.

Haugli: It has been great fun. You have delivered this in person in many places. You have travelled around and attended almost all the sessions. We were together in Drammen, among other places, where we ran one of the courses. There is also a digital solution that everyone listening to the podcast can explore. What struck me relates directly to your final point: the participating companies benefited enormously from talking to one another. That is because this is about value chains, shared reflection, ways of thinking and sharing best practice. Where have others learnt lessons the hard way? I think that openness is uniquely Norwegian – our ability to be open from the outset and share with one another. I believe that is essential. This also represents a cultural shift. Of course, it involves changes to both business models and technology. Much of the technology is transferable, but much of it is not, so a great deal still needs to be developed. But it also requires a shift in mindset, culture and how we see ourselves.

Host: Now we're getting to it. You've been talking a lot about skills, which are of course absolutely essential. Businesses regularly express concern about their ability to attract and retain people with the right skills. What is your experience, Ann Christin?

Andersen: We are a small country with an open economy. Although our population is highly educated and highly skilled, meeting demand when industry is busy can be challenging. There are new framework conditions relating to the rules on hiring temporary labour and so on. It is difficult to have enough people both to focus on your core business today and to work on the transition ahead. I think attracting new employees and replacing the older generation as they retire is challenging. Very challenging. So we need to share knowledge wisely and avoid wasting time.

Host: But achieving this will take more than a competence-building programme from us. What else can you do to make it happen?

Andersen: I’d like to take a step back. We’ve been talking about the need to mobilise businesses as part of our efforts to become a leader in offshore wind. This doesn’t quite answer your question, but I’d like to address a related issue. I believe it’s important that we also collaborate in other ways, beyond businesses working together and building their competence. We need to strengthen cooperation between government ministries. We need a coordinated focus on the offshore wind sector, both internationally and at home. And we need to ensure that we have sufficient capacity to process all the offshore wind licence applications we receive.

Host: So, you want more bureaucrats, do you?

Andersen: The paradox is that we are now so impatient that we cannot allow bureaucracy to delay us. But it is also important for the ministries to coordinate their efforts. I believe this is important for the Ministry of Trade, Industry and Fisheries, the Ministry of Petroleum and Energy, and not least the Ministry of Education and Research. We need to expand continuing education and professional development in areas relevant to this new industry. And the other two ministries I mentioned need to work together. I would also like to highlight another area that matters to me: we need to strengthen – and I know I often talk about more funding – but we need to coordinate the public support system for offshore wind. We need a coordination strategy. We need clearly defined roles.

And Håkon, you have a very special role here as captain of Team Norway. We must help ensure that our representatives around the world are aligned in their messaging and actions. Nils Arne Eggen put it well in his football philosophy: you have to use people where they can contribute most to the team, rather than where it suits them best. So I’m looking to you on that.

Haugli: Yes, that sounds very good. We accept that challenge, and we are very keen to take it on. We will do everything we can to be the supportive big brother in our collaboration, both internationally through what we call Team Norway abroad, and at home in our relationships with our commissioning bodies in the ministries and elsewhere, as well as between the various public support agencies. Just before Christmas, we signed a cooperation agreement with NORWEP, and we look forward to developing that partnership further. In addition, a number of clusters and business organisations will play important roles in this. So we will do our part, and I will do mine to make it happen.
And I fully agree with your analysis that this is important. We cannot approach offshore wind,

or, for that matter, any other industry, without thinking across sectors and disciplines. This is important – and the educational institutions, Kjetil, as you ask about competence, clearly have a very important role to play in this.

Andersen: But there is no magic wand for increasing people's capacity or knowledge. We simply have to keep working at it and appeal to young people, showing them that they can get involved and help strengthen Norway as an energy nation.

Haugli: One important perspective here is that much of what we are discussing is about

industrial jobs in rural Norway. What we see is that there is no shortage of opportunities, but there is a shortage of people. I believe that making these jobs attractive will help both retain skilled workers and attract expertise from elsewhere, while also making these communities more vibrant. But yes, the numbers are a challenge, and we must also remember that a significant proportion of Norway's population is outside the workforce for various reasons. I believe it is also important to find effective ways to bring more people into work.

Host: This is a great opportunity to ask one of the questions we often put to our guests here on Innopodden: what would you say to the Prime Minister if you found yourself on a rather long lift ride with him, Ann Christin?

Andersen: I’m glad you said it would be a fairly long lift ride. Dear Jonas!
No, I think my message to the Prime Minister would be that, as captain of the government team, he needs to bring his ministers together around an inspiring energy strategy for Norway. Rather than each minister pursuing separate agendas on batteries, weapons, hydrogen or whatever else, we need an overarching vision for Norway to remain an energy nation after the green transition. It is also important to take a long-term view. We need broad political agreements that extend our horizon across several decades, rather than from one election to the next. And last but not least, I would of course say that we now need predictable conditions for industry that secure more power and energy for Norway. No more experimenting with the regulatory framework. We need a long-term approach.

Host: Finally, I have to ask you as well: Much of this is about innovation, and it often comes down to individuals. Which innovator inspires you?

Andersen: I’d like to bring this a little closer to home here in Norway, because since stepping away from my operational career at Technip FMC, I’ve had the pleasure of working with several start-ups. I’m so impressed by the courage of people who start their own businesses, often in renewable energy and, not least, the circular economy. I know they’ll be listening to this podcast. So Jonas, Arne and Lars – fantastic work!
It’s a shame, though, that so many start-ups are founded by men. I’m keen to champion women, and I’m impressed by Elisabeth Øfstebø, who invests in female-founded tech start-ups. I also have to mention Toril Nag. I’ve followed her journey at the Lyse Group from afar, and it has really impressed me. I think she’s very talented.
I’m also looking forward to meeting John Markus Lervik, who has had a remarkable journey with Cognite. We’re meeting for coffee soon. These are the innovators close to home whom I want to highlight, because I don’t think people in start-ups get enough credit.

Host: You're smiling, Håkon!

Haugli: Yes … some incredibly exciting names there, and I know several of them. I can only share in the enthusiasm, but I would also say that Norway needs many, many more people just like them, and many more of those doing the same kind of work – of both genders, obviously – in established businesses and among investors. Above all, we need more talented entrepreneurs if we are to succeed, not only in offshore wind, but in building the industries Norway will rely on in the future. We have a major task ahead of us.

Host: There are clearly many major topics here that we could discuss further, but we are almost out of time. Thank you for joining us, Ann Christin Andersen, and thank you, Håkon Haugli. My name is Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann. We’ll be back with another episode of Innopodden.