Podcast 2026

Guest: Ketil Olsen, CEO of Andøya Space
From Innovation Norway: CEO Håkon Haugli and
Programme Manager Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann

Host: After a 40-year military career, he now heads Andøya Space. Ketil Olsen embodies multi-use, or dual-use, in practice. But why should Norway be a spacefaring nation? Can we compete with larger countries that have far greater resources? And can launching things into space become a profitable business? Håkon Haugli and I, Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann, explore the bigger picture together with Ketil Olsen, speaking from Arendal, where this year's Arendalsuka is well under way.

Welcome to Innopodden, Ketil Olsen.

Olsen: Thank you so much – and thank you for inviting me. We are always ready to talk about something that means almost more to us than anything else in the world. I really appreciate it.

Host: Yes, it’s great to have you with us. As I mentioned, we’re here at Arendalsuka. What brings you here? What do you hope to achieve by being here?

Olsen: We have … I’ve been here before, when I was in the military, but Andøya Space has expanded enormously in recent years. We haven’t actually chosen to prioritise Arendalsuka. Then last year, we came to the realisation that this couldn’t continue. Everyone is at Arendalsuka, so the space industry needs to be here too. Last year, there was one space event on Andøya … no, sorry, in … Arendal, on one day. This year, there are seven space events, so you can see how interest is growing. Wherever space is being discussed, Andøya Space should be there. We are one of the key companies representing what Norwegian industry can deliver. We provide innovation, technology, services, support and everything else needed to make the space industry work in Norway. So it’s only natural for us to be here.

Host: I suppose your reason for being here is much the same, Håkon: wherever innovation is being discussed – as it is here – that's where you need to be?

Haugli: Being able to have the kind of conversation we're having now is incredibly valuable. You meet lots of people here who would otherwise be difficult – or at least very challenging – to arrange meetings with, so we're very pleased about that. And yes, part of our mission is to be present and to find … to take part in the arenas where our work is being discussed. But Ketil, could you tell us a little more about Andøya Space and what kind of organisation it is?

Olsen: In August 1962 – in fact, just a few days from now – it will be 64 years since we launched the first rocket into space from Andøya, and from Norway. That was just five years after Sputnik, the world's first satellite, was launched. We began with scientific rockets, in a collaboration between NASA, the Danish Meteorological Institute and the Norwegian Defence Research Establishment. They were looking for a place where they could study the Northern Lights from within, and Andøya is perfect for that. And that is Andøya's great strength: location, location, location. When you are looking for a flat or somewhere to live, location matters. The same applies to us when it comes to access to space. Andøya was perfect for scientific rockets back then, and today it is perfect for launching satellites into polar orbit.

Host: But – with all due respect – it is rather remote, isn't it?

Olsen: Yes and no. It is ... The location is actually very important because it gives us access to a vast ocean area. There are fewer people there, and relatively little traffic in the air, on land and at sea. We have a large area, which means that when we launch rockets, we do not come into conflict with other nations. Andøya has excellent logistics. We have an airport with a 2,500-metre runway. We have deep-water quays, and now we also have a spaceport. Taken together – our 60 years of experience on Andøya and the fact that we live in one of the most stable democratic regions in the world – this makes Andøya ideal for this.

Haugli: It really is a very special place. I've been to Andøya a couple of times, and it's the only part of Norway that wasn't covered by ice during the last Ice Age. It juts out a little, so it's very well positioned in relation to space. And hasn't there been oil or coal there? I believe there's a small coalfield on Andøya, and the Norwegian Armed Forces have been there for many years. Could you tell those who haven't been there a little about how to get there? What does it look like – what kind of place is Andøya, really?

Olsen: You arrive in a small municipality – a ROBEK municipality, in fact – which is certainly not the wealthiest. Its heyday came with the Armed Forces in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The population peaked at around 8,060; today, it is about 4,500. There have been major defence cuts, and we are finding it somewhat difficult to build the ecosystem we and the other organisations need. Several organisations are operating on Andøya, and their activities will grow over time, but we are struggling to put housing and land-use plans in place. How can we make it an attractive place to live and encourage people to stay? Andøya is therefore going through a major transition and needs considerable support and help to move forward. I believe we have a role to play by providing support and helping to attract workers to the island.

Haugli: Yes, because this is a very important topic: how space and Andøya create value and jobs. It may not be immediately obvious. You might think that launching a rocket into space is primarily an expense. But it is so much more than that. Could you tell us a little about how this works … what kinds of businesses does the space industry generate? In other words, what types of industries benefit from the data collected?

Olsen: It isn't a cost! It's actually a competitive arena. It's an investment – for businesses, this means putting technology, services and infrastructure in place, which in turn generate export revenue. It strengthens Norway's security and drives innovation. Bringing all this together on Andøya and creating an ecosystem around what we and others are doing will help us build even more. We need rockets and satellites, and we need to test them. We also need education – which we already provide through our own Andøya Space Education – so there are many elements involved, including defence, which is very important. The Norwegian Armed Forces established a presence there around five or six years before us, and we have coexisted with them ever since. There is a natural connection here: the dual-use concept you briefly mentioned helps lay the foundation for further development and growth on Andøya. But we also need bright minds. We need more innovation, and bringing everyone together on Andøya in an incubator or a similar setting that can help build this expertise for Norway, both nationally and internationally, is extremely important. We currently have 250 employees from 18 countries on Andøya, and we are recruiting another 60, 70 or 80 people this year. I hope the board will allow me to do the same next year. We need to attract young people and people with good ideas, but someone must help create the conditions we need to succeed. This is where the government comes in, because this is a major undertaking for Norway. But it will deliver a return on investment in the future.

Haugli: Yes, this brings us to what we are working on together – Innovation Norway, Andøya Space and, indeed, the ecosystem around us – which involves several things.
But what is on your wish list? What do you need most of all?
– And while you think about that, I can say a little about what we have done. We have worked to attract international companies to Andøya, including a German company that has established a presence there. We have, of course, also worked with entrepreneurs in the space data sector. We have been doing that for many years in other places too. And I think we work closely and effectively together on the whole – how should I put it? – regional policy challenge that you have touched on. For example, we have provided support to other businesses on Andøya, and the municipality has also taken part in our restructuring programme for municipalities. So that is what we have had on the menu so far. But beyond what we do at Innovation Norway, what would your top three wishes from Norway be?

Olsen: I want us at Innovation Norway to continue the good work. You have helped us bring businesses and activity to the island, but we simply need more because we need greater activity. That will bring life back to homes and attract people to the area. Secondly, we need to secure funding for Andøya Spaceport and its infrastructure so that we can expand. None of us – nor Norway – will become wealthy from having just one launch pad, so we need one or two more. We must expand the current level of activity.
We are licensed for 30 launches. Isar carried out one last year. We need to achieve more in the years ahead, while also securing investments in competence building – by which I mean the natural sciences. This will help us recruit people in the future. We need this competence building because applications for natural science degree programmes are declining across Norway. Yet these skills are essential to the future of space activities, so we need to create the right conditions by funding basic research and the fundamental capabilities at Andøya. If we want others to invest in Andøya, we also need predictability. With a turnover of NOK 500 million, a company such as Andøya Space does not have the financial muscle to do this alone, so the government must create the right conditions. It can do so through this type of investment. This will give others confidence that it is safe and worthwhile to invest, enabling us to build an entire ecosystem around the activities at Andøya.

Host: You mentioned – or briefly touched on – the German company Isar, which is a very important partner for you. And I'd like to hear a little more about the launches themselves. So far, there has been – well, one rocket launch. The rocket flew for about 30 seconds. Then, when they were due to launch the next one, it was postponed time and again. Is that normal in your line of work?

Olsen: Sit back and enjoy what is happening, because this is a familiar development process.
SpaceX succeeded in reaching space on its fourth attempt. Isar has launched once. Last year, there were 300 launches from the US and seven from Europe. Of those seven European launches, only one took place from mainland Europe. That was at Andøya Space. What Isar has done there is continue to break down barriers. It is important to us that people understand that. We are just as eager and just as keen for this to go well – and Isar will succeed. The company has outstanding expertise – German engineers, after all – and everything that entails. The next launch is just around the corner. We are very keen, and so is Isar. We believe we can make it happen in September, as soon as possible. Then we will see whether they succeed, but there are no guarantees. It is normal to try, try and try again. There are 100,000 parts working together for the first time, being launched into space and subjected to all the forces involved. There is no guarantee of success, but we believe and hope they will succeed. They are at the forefront in Europe, and so are we. This will be our sixth launch attempt, so we are used to it. We know how to do this. No one has done it before in Europe, so we are breaking new ground in Norway. We are pioneers in what we do.

Host: But delays and things like that don't worry you too much?

Olsen: No, I don't, but I'm just as impatient. We have to succeed now, and we're going to make it happen. I'm just as positive every time. I'm just as enthusiastic. It's going to work out.

Haugli: Do you just stand there and watch?

Olsen: Yes, if I'm in the country, I do.

Haugli: Yes. That's brilliant … I mean, you have such an exciting background. We can talk a little about that, but just out of curiosity: have you always been interested in space?

Olsen: No. I haven't!

Haugli: No?

Olsen: No, for me, it’s like this … I spent 40 years in the Norwegian Armed Forces. I served in the Royal Norwegian Navy, worked extensively in other branches of the Armed Forces and spent ten years at NATO. So that background sparked my interest in technology. I’m interested in … I’m always a little short of time, a little impatient. Then you turn 60 and the Armed Forces say goodbye. At least, that was how it worked back then, so I had to leave – and realised I still had far too much energy. I needed to find something to do, and then I received a job offer from Andøya Space. Blimey … we’re going to make history on Andøya – what’s all this about? I had to be part of it. So I headed north and have since watched, and helped with, the development of the spaceport. But we do many other things at Andøya Space too – scientific rockets, space technology education and, not least, defence testing. There’s a great deal going on that I find incredibly exciting. It’s a broad field of work. When I joined in 2020, we had 100 employees. We’ll soon pass 230, then 250, and perhaps reach 300 within a year or so. So there are clearly enormous challenges in everything happening there – it’s incredibly exciting.

Haugli: Great fun!

Host: Space exploration, Håkon – it involves innovation in every tiny detail. What are your thoughts on this initiative and its significance for Norway?

Haugli: It is very important for Norway to take some... make some bigger leaps, and if there is one thing that worries me, it is how short-term our thinking can be about this kind of thing. Typically, if something does not go exactly to plan, people get nervous and put a stop to it. If we do not do this in Norway, someone else will. And just to say a few words about where we see useful potential for innovation: I have learnt a little about what is known as upstream and downstream. Upstream innovation covers all the technology needed to actually get into space, and there is a great deal of it. It overlaps with aviation and other advanced technologies. Then you have downstream innovation, which is about the data retrieved from satellites. This data has enormous potential for innovation.

Olsen: That's where the money is …

Haugli: … that is the most important thing. And what … and there you have, you know, both small start-ups and major players. This is actually an area where Norway is at the forefront through KSAT, Kongsberg Satellite Services, which has satellites at … or rather, satellite ground stations in both Svalbard and Northern Norway. So this is something we know how to do in Norway, and where … the potential … and it is all interconnected, you know? These rockets need to be launched to put the satellites into orbit, which in turn makes it possible to download data. And there needs to be an ecosystem around this that enables entrepreneurs to use that data and create value from it. It is very important that people understand this whole picture, and that political decision-makers understand it. Otherwise, they will not make the right decisions, and … if you pull one part out of this value chain, you risk the entire structure or ecosystem no longer working. So I am also very keen to say, on our behalf, that we are very pleased with what is happening at Andøya and have been committed to staying closely involved. Our Nordland office in particular – shout-out to them – has maintained a close dialogue with Nordland County Council and is actively involved, and of course we will continue to be.

Olsen: We have a wealth of good technology in Norway. We have talented people. We are innovative, but my focus is on scalability. And that is precisely where we need Innovation Norway. We need to work together. We need to look at Norway, the Nordic region and, indeed, Europe. Because this is about Europe's future security. That is what we are working towards. Being able to manage this ourselves gives Norway security, while also generating revenue, because, as I said at the outset, this is a competitive arena. Having the government support its development and provide that security also helps us attract people and expertise. So, Håkon, I think this is closely linked to what you are saying.

Haugli: Yes, absolutely, and I think it is also worth mentioning that all the major export industries we have today are the result of public-private partnerships. We tend to forget that. Oil did not find its own way out of the North Sea; it took major public investment in education, research and innovation to develop what was needed, as well as international collaboration. The same applies to all our other major export industries. We need to follow the same recipe now, which brings us back to the need for stamina, openness to the world and a commercial focus. We also need a connected ecosystem and cross-sector collaboration. So we think this is very... It is exciting that you mention the incubator. Could you tell us a little about it? I am jumping around a bit here, but it is a tool we could consider. How can we make it happen?

Olsen: What we have done is establish Newspace North, a company that aims to attract ideas and people with shared interests and bring them together in one community. It has had a somewhat long and difficult birth, but that is how it goes. These things take time to set up, and Isar keeps being pushed back as well, so it all takes a while. But we co-own this with Siva, Andøy Municipality and Nordland County Council, so the foundations are in place for us to bring others in, connect them and contribute to a shared development process where they meet like-minded people with good ideas and ultimately create an entire ecosystem together.

Haugli: So, if a young – how should I put it? – space entrepreneur is listening, is this something they can take advantage of today?

Olsen: It is. The key is to get involved ... Feel free to contact me afterwards – find me on LinkedIn, and I'll help steer you in the right direction. But some of us are getting older, so we need new geeks coming through the ranks. We need to bring them in and give them the opportunity to develop.

Haugli: Yes, this is a national responsibility – to ensure a steady supply of nerds!

Olsen: Yes, it is!

Host: Space nerds. You touched briefly on safety and security. Tell us a little about how you see your work contributing to emergency preparedness.

Olsen: Modern society has become completely dependent on satellites. We have moved our infrastructure – our invisible infrastructure – into space. If the satellites were to fail – and I do not think they would all fail at once – we would be in the dark within 24 to 48 hours. There would be no electricity or water, and our clocks would no longer be synchronised. You would not be able to use your bank card for anything, so modern society would quickly collapse without satellites. By having launch capabilities in Norway that we own and can safeguard, Norway holds a trump card in Europe. Together, we now have control over how to restore services in the future through the rapid launch of satellites that can meet society's needs. This is about national resilience. It is emergency preparedness in the broadest sense. At the same time, we also conduct weapons testing and facilitate training for allied military exercises in Norway. This helps build preparedness and a better understanding of Norway and the challenges in the High North. One of Norway's key roles is to be the eyes and ears of the north. We need to understand what is happening up there, so preparedness is a major part of all this.

Haugli: This was one of the topics we covered in this year's Innovation Speech, which you took part in. Could you give us a very brief summary of what you said?

Olsen: Yes, I covered a lot in a short space of time. But these were some of the points I made, and I think it comes back, to some extent, to collaboration. We are concerned that things may be moving a little slowly in the EU, ESA and all these large, cumbersome organisations. Germany has recognised this and said, 'We are allocating €35 billion between now and 2030 to support defence-related space activities.' Everyone else in Europe sees this, so they are flocking to Germany, saying, 'We want to be part of this.' What does Germany do? It turns to Norway and comes to Andøya. Merz, Støre, two trade and industry ministers and two defence ministers – they all come to Andøya to see our launch capacity. Because it is a bottleneck, and will remain one for many decades to come, worldwide.

Host: Do you have no competitors today?

Olsen: Yes, we do. We have competitors, but also partners. I think it is important for Europe to create interoperability if we are to be self-reliant. We have Esrange in Sweden, which is currently being developed. Then there is SaxaVord in Shetland, UK, which is also under development. I think the three of us are at the forefront, with us slightly ahead because we have already carried out a launch.

Host: So, you have a slight head start on your competitors?

Olsen: We do, but the first-mover advantage won't last long. That's why I'm talking to Cecilie Myrseth, Tore O. Sandvik and other politicians. We need to get moving – the time is now! We have a unique opportunity to lead the way. And if you're the very first, you have an opportunity unlike any other. Perhaps one day we'll send people into space from Norway?

Haugli: At least judging by the number of space-related activities in Arendal, we have to say things are moving in the right direction. A sevenfold increase – a sharp rise in interest in space in general. Do you feel that people understand enough, or … what should everyone know?

Olsen: That is why I travel around, almost like … prostituting myself, if I can put it that way, talking about space and the opportunities it will offer in the years ahead. Because it is so important that people understand its significance. It will give people confidence in why space matters to us. At the same time, it will generate interest. That is how we encourage more people to come to Andøya and join the space sector across Norway. You mentioned KSAT, Space Norway, Kongsberg and Eidel – we have many excellent companies in Norway, but our efforts are a little too fragmented. Where is the Team Norway mindset? Who is driving us forward in the same direction? We need shared goals – and Norway probably still has some work to do there.

Host: But you work with all the companies you just mentioned, don't you?

Olsen: We do, but I think there is scope for us to do even more together.

Haugli: We’ll have to come in for a landing soon, but it’s been great talking to you about this. Looking ahead, if we were to make a prediction, how might we picture Andøya Space in, say, ten years’ time? What … what are your thoughts? What will it look like if we manage to … if we succeed?

Olsen: And it’s not a question of if we succeed, Håkon, but when we succeed. Because we will – we’ve got this …

Haugli: I like that a lot.

Olsen: Ten years is a long way off. If you look back ten years, the world was very different. OK, we have several launch opportunities on Andøya. We are establishing a service that provides space launch as a service, meaning we can offer... We operate all the spaceports in Europe, and we are able to... We are building substantial launch capacity to send people into space. Because if we establish that in Norway, no one else in Europe will have that capability. We will be the first, and we will be the only one – I am absolutely convinced of that. I believe all these future opportunities will make Andøya Space part of a major space industry ecosystem, which has effectively become Norway's new oil. Because that is what it has the potential to become. The forecast is for turnover of $1.8 trillion by 2035. I believe we should secure our share of that.

Host: And we’re involved too, Håkon?

Haugli: Yes, this is a really inspiring picture. The only thing I’m missing is the opportunity to be launched into space. Personally.

Olsen: I discussed it with my son, and he said, ‘Now we’re going to Mars together, Dad.’ ‘No, we’re not,’ I said. ‘You’re going, and I’ll look after us down here on Earth.’

Haugli: No, but seriously, this is clearly a very important mission for many people, and for us at Innovation Norway too. There are several ways we can contribute, and we also depend in every way on working well with others. So it is a very inspiring vision.

Host: And with that, we'll wrap up – still looking towards outer space. Thank you for joining us, Ketil Olsen, and thank you, Håkon Haugli. My name is Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann, and we'll be back with another episode of Innopodden.

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Guest: Kjetil Trædal Thorsen, Snøhetta.

From Innovation Norway: CEO Håkon Haugli and

Presenter Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann.

Host: First, they designed the Bibliotheca Alexandrina in Egypt. Since then, they have created projects including the memorial pavilion at Ground Zero in New York, the Norwegian National Opera and Ballet, an underwater restaurant and the world's largest reading room at the library in Beijing. They have shaped landscapes and designed shelves, lamps and chairs. Snøhetta is an international brand and one of the world's leading architectural practices. Its more than 250 employees work in offices across seven countries, and we meet them at their headquarters in a shed on Akershusstranda in Oslo. Kjetil Trædal Thorsen is an architect, professor, honorary doctor and founder of the company. He has invited Håkon Haugli and me, Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann, from Innopodden to visit.

Welcome to Innopodden, Kjetil Trødal Thorsen ... or perhaps we should thank you for inviting us? We're now sitting in Snøhetta's offices at Akershusstranda …

Haugli: 'Fantastic premises! Could you tell us a little about the design?'

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, of course, I'd be happy to. This is an old storage shed that belonged to the Port Authority. It's right on the quayside at Vippetangen, which is a well-known place in Oslo. But the most important thing was working with the Port Authority to get them to say … 'but you can't have offices here,' right? Because they've only ever seen it filled with large machinery and …

Host: Yes, they've seen it as a shed.

Trædal Thorsen: - A shed, yes. And it is a shed. It’s Shed 39. But nothing beats a good shed! It’s really all about the location, of course – and we’ve done relatively little to it, keeping the refurbishment quite limited. The concrete columns still have markings painted on them by the dockworkers back in the day, and everything feels quite raw and rugged. But it’s the location here, the view across the Oslofjord and due south … and the feeling that you’re right in the heart of Oslo, yet at the same time down below Akershus and beyond Akershus. So there’s a sense of distance, even though it only takes five minutes …

Host: And you're close to the sea?

Trædal Thorsen: Very close to the sea. The sea is important, of course. The Oslo Fjord is a major urban space in Oslo, isn't it? From where we are now, it looks like a lake, with land on all sides. You can't see straight out to sea, so it feels very intimate. And there's a lot of activity on the Oslo Fjord, so to us, it's an urban space.

Host: It's a wonderful location, and it's also a space that feels full of life as soon as you walk in. There's a lot happening here, isn't there?

Haugli: … And creativity, I would say. There are lots of plants, and you can immediately see that people here are ... working on exciting things, because there are models of different things made from different materials, and …

Trædal Thorsen: It’s this wonderful blend of chaos and order, isn’t it? You work in a creative profession where … it’s almost like working in a newsroom. You’re always up against a deadline, and things move very quickly. Then we have the workshops out the back, where you can work with wood. We have large CNC machines, 3D printing, laser cutting and everything that allows you to ... You can hold things in your hands; they’re not just on a computer screen. But the energy in this space is palpable, without it becoming a sweatshop. We pay close attention to working hours, how people are treated and their wellbeing, and we do a great many things together. There’s a strong collective approach to everything, and that makes Snøhetta a little different from many others, doesn’t it? It isn’t led by the so-called architectural genius. You know? It’s very much about showing trust, involving every employee and giving them responsibility. Responsibility builds trust. And it also helps each individual develop their abilities. A physical space like this should help make that clear, shouldn’t it? It should show that this is what we want. So when you create an office environment, it should communicate what you think – before you’ve even thought it. It somehow needs to embody what you want the people who work there to do.

Haugli: There’s something about the openness here – when we arrived a few minutes ago, there was an international delegation visiting, including some of your potential customers, and there are lots of children’s drawings on the wall because you’re welcoming 400 schoolchildren over the course of a few days. So this open ... open space really reflects how open this place is … and the wide range of things you do.

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, we're very active in the Cultural Schoolbag programme. We're also working with the Savings Bank Foundation to expand the Craftsmanship Initiative, as well as with smaller schools through our foundation. But really, is there anything to hide? What would we hide? Perhaps if we were in the final stages of a competition and our competitors came in to see what we'd done. But that's not where we are. Everything we do is transparent in a way, and it's available either online or elsewhere. We show everything we do, all the time, so there's no reason for us to shut ourselves away – and we don't.

Haugli: We ... we believe that every Norwegian has some connection to Snøhetta, and I think that's probably true. But perhaps they don't have a fully up-to-date picture of what you do – the foundation, for example, is quite new. Could you tell us a little about ... well, the journey from the company's founding to where you are today, and what has been important along the way?

Trædal Thorsen: Well, yes, I can start. There are, of course, many important stages in such a long journey. But one of the things that struck us very early on when we founded Snøhetta was that we needed to create a collective, and it had to be as interdisciplinary as possible, right? So Snøhetta became a kind of symbol at the centre of it all: a mountain you can climb from several sides. You can think of interdisciplinarity in much the same way – you climb the mountain from different sides. You experience the mountain differently, even though it is the same mountain, …

Haugli: Great analogy!

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, and it is all connected, in a way. From the very beginning, we combined landscape and architecture, primarily because we felt that, particularly in Norway at the time, before we began entering competitions abroad, budgets always covered buildings but never landscapes. So if there was a little money left at the end of a project, you might get to plant a tree or some grass, lay a kerbstone or something like that. And we... we felt that this was an extremely poor holistic approach to the environments we inhabit. So we brought architecture and landscape together and incorporated the architecture budget into the landscape element. This meant that we always considered the project's total budget, both indoors and outdoors. Naturally, this broadened our perspective on what architecture and landscape mean, with architecture influencing the landscape and the landscape influencing the architecture. We could never have designed a building like the Oslo Opera House without working with landscape architects over such a long period. We then expanded this interdisciplinary collaboration to include interiors, art, design, products, relationships, urbanism and the idea of what we used to call a truly 'whole orange' – no segments were missing; it encompassed the full range of creative disciplines. And then there is the influence of having perhaps 45 nationalities represented, many of them here at the studio, who both shape and are shaped by the projects through their different cultural backgrounds, all kinds of lifestyle preferences and ways of living... If you are vegetarian, you are free to live that way; if you follow a paleo diet, you are free to do that too. You know, it is about bringing a breadth of perspectives to the projects.

Host: Were you the only ones working that way?

Trædal Thorsen: At the time, no, there weren't many others. Working across disciplines in that way has since almost become the norm, but I think the benefits are clear in nearly every organisation as they broaden their professional understanding and develop a more holistic perspective, if you like. That is precisely because there is no absolute truth, nor is anything entirely untrue, in a sense. It has to do with perception and mindset. If you are given a task, it can of course be solved in a million different ways, but you have to narrow the options down through knowledge and intuition. You need to create the right conditions for people to flourish, so they can bring both their professional expertise and who they are as individuals to the table.

Host: And you've built the company into what it is today, with at least 250 employees across something like seven different locations?

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, and this was important to us, you know. First of all, our first major success came abroad. We didn't win anything in Norway, did we? We only came second or third, or received purchase awards and things like that. So we thought, OK, let's enter the competition for the Library of Alexandria. After we won, it took twelve years for the building to be completed. So you need to take a long-term view … When we started, we had a 30-year perspective: say ten years to establish ourselves, ten years to consolidate and ten years to reap the rewards. We didn't quite manage it in 30 years, but we did it in around 33 or 34 years, which brings us to where we are today. And we had to expand because we were winning projects elsewhere in the world, outside Norway and the Nordic region. For a long time, we had a hit-and-run strategy: you win a project, set up a temporary office and then pull out. It took us almost twelve years to fully realise that a long-term presence in the markets where we operated was absolutely essential. So we established an office in New York when we won the Ground Zero project, and one in Innsbruck because much of the Alpine region was part of our market – and I had been a professor at the university in Innsbruck for many years. We knew many talented people there, so it made sense to continue there. Then came Melbourne, Adelaide, Paris, Shenzhen and Hong Kong … Our studios are still highly multidisciplinary, so in a way, we move forward together. Ultimately, it became absolutely essential to build a shared sense of trust among people working on their projects across different locations and time zones around the world. I travel more than 200 days a year, but that isn't what ultimately delivers results – the results come from the people working on the projects wherever they are. So you have to build an internal culture that safeguards your core values. You must never lose sight of what you are trying to achieve, but you also have to give people freedom. And we aren't a typical style-driven practice. We work contextually, as it's called, taking our cue from the conditions where each project is located. That means our projects look different, so we're harder to classify stylistically than many others.

Host: We’ll have to come back to that, but I just want to ask you: It’s now around 37 years since you founded the company, and when you look back at all your projects – and I think we can all agree that you’ve helped deliver a great many remarkable projects – what makes you most proud?

Trædal Thorsen: Well, there’s no doubt that, early in my career, the Bibliotheca Alexandrina and the Oslo Opera House were real milestones. They were like driving a stake into the ground, you know? In a way, they established projects that represent what we stand for, that clearly express it, while also being innovative enough to change how that type of architecture is understood. I believe the Oslo Opera House has changed the world’s understanding of what an opera house can be. But, you know, it’s difficult to go around feeling proud of things as well … I mean … that’s not really how I think. What interests me most, almost all the time, is the projects we’re working on right now. And with those … you know, through imagined visions of a possible future, we’re constantly trying to picture what future memories might involve, if that makes sense. Things that haven’t happened yet. You try to imagine what patterns of response and memory might look like before the project has been built. And that’s an incredibly interesting exercise to undertake with many people, because everyone carries memories in different ways. So the pride we take in what we do … it comes more from how people use the projects. You know, we often say that architecture is the world’s best social tool, because it can either shut you out or invite you in. And what makes us proudest is seeing how the architecture is used in the places where it stands.

Haugli: I walk past the Oslo Opera House almost every day on my way to and from work, and it is … one example of what you are saying is how the building is used. It is a meeting place – there are people on the roof around the clock. I have walked past and seen a seal lying there, right by the water’s edge, and there are always activities taking place around the building that have nothing to do with opera – people doing other things. When you start a process like that, do you … envisage that kind of use? Is that … part of the process, or does some of it also happen by chance, sort of ‘because of …’?

Trædal Thorsen: Well, that is an interesting question, isn't it? Because in creative processes, you are very often working towards what is known as a light-bulb moment, when everything falls into place after all the preceding conversations, sketches, diagrams and references. And then you start collecting a range of disparate images that are not necessarily about design and expression, but about function. What do you want to achieve? What might the diagram look like? If you want to open up an opera house to a wider audience, and you know that many people are reluctant to enter the foyer, what could replace it? This gradually became known as the 'third space': neither inside nor outside, both part of the building and not part of it. These grey areas are important in architecture and design. So, in the early stages, we would typically put together a team of choreographers, composers, librettists, dancers, architects and interior architects. Those who were not architects were very keen to start shaping things straight away, while those of us who were architects wanted to hold back. It was the same when we produced our first book with Kjartan Fløgstad, and he wrote 'Hus som vil meg hysa'. Kjartan wanted to be an architect, and I wanted to be a writer. What this kind of broad collaboration does is create narratives around where you want people to be and what you want them to experience there. That is when the idea of proximity to objects emerges. If you can walk on something, are you not closer to it than if you can only walk beneath it? If you can sit on a chair, are you not closer to the chair than when you merely look at it? Is that not the case when you can feel and touch things? These ideas then become drivers, and you have to find a way to translate them into design and model-making. You have to test them. What if people could walk on the roof of an opera house? What would that achieve? Most likely, it would create a lasting sense of ownership of the building, which might in turn bring new visitors into the foyer and the auditorium. These are hypotheses, of course. But we strongly believed that this hypothesis was right, and that has proved to be the case. You can see it in what people wear to a première, in the make-up of the audience and in their ages. Being inclusive works, and it helps you convey what you want to say. So this light-bulb moment is a jumble of things that suddenly find their almost spiritual place somewhere in the space.

Host: You have extensive dialogue with users and different groups before you start the work. Do you have a similar dialogue with them afterwards?

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, we do a great deal of what are known as post-occupancy studies. We are interested in the architecture, of course, but its impact is more important than the architecture itself. So we need to measure that impact. We need to ask: did more people visit the Opera House? Or Times Square? Did the shops on either side of Times Square, Broadway and the diagonal running down from it see an increase in sales? Yes, they did. Did the air become cleaner? Was there less crime? How did people's perceptions change? Did New Yorkers return to Times Square, which had been overrun by tourists? Yes, they did. So we can measure the results after five, ten, fifteen and twenty years, and see the impact of architecture and design as a social tool – and what it actually means for each person's experience of the place they are in.

Haugli: Yes, this idea of place is interesting here. The Opera House as a building is one thing, but it also forms part of a wider context. I may be stretching the point a little, but that building and Snøhetta's work have, in a way, transformed Oslo. We are a different city. It has changed the surrounding area, but it has also given us a completely different sense of pride. Through our work in tourism, we see that Oslo now attracts a very different kind of visitor. Oslo ranks very highly in indices measuring things like 'coolness' and modern urban life, and that has not happened by itself. So what I am really asking is: how wide a circle do you draw when measuring the impact? It is one thing to measure the number of people entering the Opera House or the Library of Alexandria, but what impact does it have on the surrounding area?

Trædal Thorsen: Well, it is extremely difficult to measure indirect economic impact. Some figures are available, while others are hypothetical. But you can see increased activity, and that can be measured. It is also difficult to attribute it to one thing or another. In Oslo, for example, you might say: yes, we now have the Deichman Library, the Munch Museum and the National Museum. Suddenly, it is the overall picture, with different elements somehow beginning to drive that activity. And many advisory firms around the world, whether they are called PwC or whatever, know that there is an economic impact further down the line. But putting precise figures on it is very difficult.

Haugli: There is plenty of evidence from urban development showing that cultural buildings like these can turn things around. The best-known example is probably the Guggenheim in Bilbao, which was a deliberate choice to reverse a downward spiral. You could think of Oslo in a similar way – although we weren't in a downward spiral – because it undoubtedly changed the city. And that brings me to something we've discussed with you before: the status of the creative industries, or how well their value is understood. So, what do you think about Norway – how well do we understand their value? This is a leading question …

Trædal Thorsen: But that's perfectly fine, and we've discussed it before, haven't we? And then there's this question running through my mind right now: how honest should I be?

Host: You can be completely honest here.

Haugli: Yes, it'll stay between us.

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, I probably can – this stays between us! I have long believed that our primary industries – oil, gas, fisheries and fishing, and all forms of... shipping, management of the marine sector and so on – are important, because our prosperity is, in a sense, built on them. But when you become so comfortable with the fact that they generate all your revenue anyway, everything else takes a back seat because you are so content with those particular industries, and you know the money will keep pouring in regardless. So you do not really need to do anything else, and I believe that is a serious mistake. In the long term, I believe it is a serious mistake not to invest much more in knowledge-based and creative industries, because Norway's level of education is ideally suited to long-term development, isn't it? We do not have any large technology companies, and we have almost no truly large creative companies. In music, literature and the cultural sector more broadly, we have a number of very important individual success stories, but we lack breadth and the ecosystems around them. As for us, when we spearhead the promotion of Norwegian architecture abroad, the whole aim is to create an ecosystem that can take this forward and make it broader and bigger, so that it represents Norway's knowledge-based and creative industries. In my view, too little has been invested in this.

Host: So, what kind of investment would you like to see?

Trædal Thorsen: Billions, right. A truly comprehensive, wholehearted investment in education, research in knowledge-based industries and how we manage it. If we keep handing out five kroner here and ten kroner there, as we do now, we will lose out. In the long term, we will lose ground in positioning ourselves in areas where these industries will become increasingly important, not least for our export industries.

Haugli: This is a very important reminder that Snøhetta is something as rare as a company that succeeds in areas where Norway has no obvious natural advantages, although perhaps we do have some cultural advantages. But leaving that aside, much of the value creation we see in Norway involves natural resources being transformed into value through various technologies. Snøhetta, on the other hand, competes in a completely open market with... a similar company could have been established anywhere in the world. Yet there is also something distinctly Norwegian about Snøhetta. And the values you mentioned earlier also reflect Norway. Even the name Snøhetta itself – the mountain – is an example of that. Could you say a little more about this? How Norwegian do you consider the company to be? And perhaps this is not the most important or central point here, but how similar are those values across, for example, your office in China and your offices in Europe?

Trædal Thorsen: No, I mean, everyone takes pride in being part of a shared Nordic and Norwegian tradition of social democratic development. I think that is deeply rooted. It is about education and schooling, equity, the distribution of wealth, the tax system and the provision of the services that a welfare state should offer its citizens at all times, right? So there are some fundamental values that serve as ideals for many people. And we are small enough to be able to manage it, so really, we should simply be satisfied – but we cannot be.

Haugli: No, that can be a little dangerous too.

Trædal Thorsen: Very dangerous, right, but when it comes to dealing with it, there is … the set of values that Gro Harlem Brundtland, among others, represented when she wrote the report Our Common Future, and which formed the basis for the definition of sustainability that eventually became the UN Sustainable Development Goals in their entirety, but which, put simply, is really about social, environmental and economic sustainability. OK, that is relatively easy to describe. You know what it is about, but then you have to define what you actually mean within those concepts. This provided a kind of foundation for the development of Norwegian society after the war, and for the political decisions made to secure those revenues, distribute the benefits and create ripple effects for local industry. And all along the west coast, there are lots of small, innovative companies that have emerged in the wake of this development. They are good, but they remain small, right? It is as if once you have 100 employees, that is it. You are satisfied. We need some companies with even greater international clout – financially and in terms of innovation – that can attract the brightest minds. If we do not have that here in Norway, well, this is part of the bigger picture and the long-term complexity of building the society we want. The foundations are perfect, right? It ... everyone looks to the Nordic countries and Norway. Everyone wants what we have. No one quite knows what it is or why things are this way. But in a sense, we do know, because we have watched it develop. Even though it can sometimes be difficult to put into words, everyone wants this ideal state, this nirvana or utopia that we now live in. Everyone wants it, so it is a good starting point for spreading the good word, if you like, through projects around the world.

Haugli: Yes. You've shown us a couple of photographs from key moments, and I think our listeners might like to hear a little about them. To me, they say so much about how you approach the development of the company and its culture. One shows everyone going on a trip to Snøhetta – the mountain – and hiking to the summit together. For people from other parts of the world, that must be a powerful team-building experience as well as an extraordinary encounter with nature, and it says a great deal about Norway. The other photograph I was thinking of is from when you were young and starting the company. One of you – I can't remember whether it was you or one of your colleagues – is holding up Our Common Future, the sustainability report, as if to say, 'This is our roadmap.' They are wonderful photographs that convey, with remarkable impact, the kind of company you are and aspire to be. You don't need to comment on this, but for those listening, I just want to explain what Snøhetta is. Snøhetta is much more than ... and, well ... the reason Snøhetta is commercially successful is that you have built a strong culture over time. There are lessons there that I think many companies underestimate when we look at businesses that grow. What has the strongest correlation with growth? What factor actually drives it? It is the ambition to grow: having a strategic vision that says, 'We are going out into the world. We are going to succeed.' Some companies – too many – are content with where they are.

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, you have to take risks. And taking risks is part of the joy, because it is incredibly exciting to find out whether something will work. The greatest feeling in life is when you succeed at something – that sense of achievement. When we teach our people to climb Snøhetta, it reflects a Nordic understanding of our relationship with the landscape: hiking together, helping each other across the river and making sure we wait for the person at the back, so that everything does not fall apart if someone ... wanders off and gets a little lost. Then you put all your energy into finding them and bringing them back into the group. That is one of the things we believe is important. My grandfather always used to say: when you are walking through rough terrain, you need to look down so that you do not stumble; you need to look ahead so that you know where you are going; and you need to look up so that you can dream a little and appreciate how good life feels in that moment. And every now and then, you need to turn around and look back at where you came from, so that you know you have covered some distance. These are really very simple principles for life, based on a basic insight into walking. I believe the human body, our relationship with our surroundings and our relationships with one another are all closely connected. Everything rests on a kind of psychosocial environment. There is no getting around that, and you have to build it at home first, don't you? All good things begin at home. It is very difficult for us to represent something out in the world if we have not put it into practice at home. So, for us, the most important project has always been the Snøhetta project. Not all our clients like it, but we do, because it enables us to deliver our best work for them.

Host: Can one of your offices elsewhere in the world carry out a project from start to finish without you or anyone here at head office being involved?

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, they can. But for the largest and most important projects, we put together teams of people from different offices to take part in what we call pin-ups, where they critique the project presented by the office in question. They offer feedback, whether critical or encouraging. So it is not a completely independent, Wild West situation; we maintain oversight of the projects. We know which direction we want to take, and I am often involved in the early stages of projects around the world, contributing to the development of concepts and shared understanding to ensure that our core values remain intact throughout the project. This can result in many different forms of expression and choices of materials. It can take many different forms, but ... in that sense, we are aligned on our core values, though not necessarily on aesthetics.

Haugli: I realise we're perhaps running a little short on time, but could you say a few words about the foundation you've established? That's something new, isn't it?

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, it’s completely new. We actually registered it this year, but I’d say we’ve been working on it for almost ten years. It also takes some internal funding to free up a non-commercial part of a company. The foundation now owns ten per cent of Snøhetta’s shares as non-voting B shares. We’re also funding it through cash donations, support from other foundations and applications we submit. But its primary focus is the next generation. We believe that the issues we’re discussing now, and what Norway has done so far, need to be addressed earlier in education. That’s one aspect. The other is that the foundation is continuing some research projects we’ve already started, covering everything from materiality to psychological impact. We’re also working across some of the major institutions internationally to maintain our relationships with them. At the Library of Alexandria, for example, we’re holding a major seminar on rethinking and rebuilding, with a particular focus on conflict, together with the Kreisky Foundation in Vienna and others, including a major Italian institute. We’re also working with Mumbai, looking at education there and how to spread a basic understanding, so that you don’t just educate technocrats, so to speak, but people who can think for themselves. Most people can, right? They just need the opportunity, and we create those opportunities through workshops, facilitation and practical support. We also work with younger pupils in Oslo, including classes in Gamlebyen. We recently ran a woodworking project where they built boats and launched them from the roof of the Oslo Opera House. That helps them understand: what is a boat? What is displacement? You don’t need to sit in a physics classroom reading the formula for displacement in water. You need to see it. You need to experience it. You need to know whether it floats or not. These are fundamental things that are really about life itself. The foundation takes this seriously and works specifically on these programmes. Martin Gran is the director of the new foundation, and we have established a board. At the end of the month, we’re going to the US for a small fundraising campaign. Many people are interested in what we’re doing because public art is also part of our work, alongside the environment and sustainability. Sustainability across these three themes forms the foundation. So the foundation builds on much of the ethos Snøhetta has had from the very beginning, but we’re now taking it forward on a non-commercial basis.

Host: It is fascinating to hear just how much you are involved in. But as we come to the end, I would like to ask you: if you had to choose one project you are working on now, which one excites you the most?

Trædal Thorsen: Well, perhaps I could highlight two projects? One is more about converting existing buildings. Much of what we in the West need to consider in the years ahead is how to use all the space and building volume we already have that is no longer suited to its original purpose. This is, of course, closely linked to sustainability – converting and restoring buildings and giving them a new lease of life. We are now just about to complete Oxy in Brussels, a building from the 1960s where we have examined every aspect of sustainability and converted it into a relevant, modern building.

Host: Powerhouse in Sandvika is another example of that, isn't it?

Trædal Thorsen: Powerhouse in Sandvika is a perfect example of that. You retain the existing architecture but transform it into an exceptionally environmentally friendly machine. I think all these things are interconnected, so we are committed to making it work. And, of course, major cultural institutions are still being developed around the world. During the course of this year, we will open the new opera houses in Busan, South Korea, and Shanghai. Shanghai is the largest performing arts centre we have designed, and our largest opera house, covering 145,000 square metres.

Haugli: And how many people can it accommodate?

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, there are five auditoriums, so we can accommodate more than 5,000 people in different configurations across the various auditoriums at the same time. But what we are exploring there is whether cultural differences mean that walking on the roof of a building will be perceived differently in China than in the Nordic countries. So it will be incredibly exciting to see, and I would say it is a very expansive, beautiful project. It draws heavily on Chinese tradition; Chinese theatre and opera are part of the programme, but at the same time it reaches out to the wider world, and we will see how these elements come together. I am really looking forward to the opening. But we also have lots of smaller things in the works, you know. For example, we are now opening a small restaurant in Hong Kong called Tiny. It has three tables, you see, and it is … it is wonderful to do things like that. Or it might be some furniture we currently have in production, or a carpet collection for Ege Carpets, for which we have developed a new weaving … digital weaving technology that is now being put into production. We have small projects for clients whom I consider important, but they are not … they are not thousands of square metres, you see – they are very small. But they are highly refined projects, and we also have the large ones, so we are one of the few practices in the world that can actually handle very small and very large projects at the same time.

Haugli: Are you going to create a kind of 'Snøhetta's guide to the world' handbook for people travelling around the world?

Trædal Thorsen: Yes, well, we're currently working on a monograph that will be published at the end of the year. And then, for the 40th anniversary, Collected Works will be released. It will include all the works, with several volumes that can be combined into one enormous book. It's going to be quite something. There are thousands of works, after all.

Haugli: Yes, I’m sure many of those listening have been to New York, for example, and seen Snøhetta’s mark on the city. I certainly have, and it makes me very, very proud to be Norwegian and, in a way, part of the Snøhetta family. And your work has a real impact on the city. You mentioned Times Square, the 9/11 Memorial and what you have done there. That is just one example, and it is wonderful. Part of our mission is to promote and build Norway’s brand, and Snøhetta, as an outstanding company, gives us tremendous support in doing that.

Trædal Thorsen: It has taken some time, hasn't it? When I gave a presentation to the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs 20 years ago, they thought the projects were all right. But the question they asked afterwards was, 'So, how much revenue do you generate internationally?' Yesterday, Elin gave a similar presentation to the Ministry's alumni group, and they said, 'OK, you are opening doors for us now.'

Haugli: Exactly, so it's the other way round.

Trædal Thorsen: A completely different way of thinking, so I'm very glad that we're moving forwards, not backwards.

Haugli: That is something to be pleased about, and I hope things improve, including the focus on the creative industries. That is a challenge you are setting for many people, including us, and we will make a note of it...

Trædal Thorsen: Of course, its value is considerably greater than we can ever measure, but even where it is measurable, I can see that it has an impact.

Host: We'll take that forward, Håkon. And many thanks to you, Kjetil Trædal Thorsen of Snøhetta, for having us here – and for the delicious waffles too. Thank you, Håkon Haugli. My name is Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann, and we'll be back with another episode of Innopodden.

Guests: Anita Hegge and Petter Berge, founders and CEO of Hvild

From Innovation Norway: Håkon Haugli, CEO, and

Host Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann.

Host: Women generally live longer than men, and their sickness absence rate is 50 per cent higher. So it is strange that various types of health insurance primarily cover … men's needs. Hvild is doing something about this. Two men in the studio are joined by Anita Hegge and Petter Berge. This is Innopodden, with Håkon Haugli and me, Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann.

Host: Welcome to Innopodden, Anita Hegge and Petter Berge.

Hegge: Thank you very much!

Host: We’re delighted to have you here. You run Hvild, which offers three things: advisory, a digital platform and women’s health insurance. We’d like to hear more about all three, but let’s start by describing the problem. One aspect is what I mentioned at the outset about sickness absence, but from the way you describe it, it’s about so much more – tell us more!

Hegge: I suppose I can start at the beginning. I spent many years working in banking and finance, as well as in the fitness industry, primarily in change management and business development. During the last few years of my career, my health was quite poor. My confidence was at rock bottom, and I had a host of symptoms that made it really difficult for me to cope at work. But we want to be able to work, don't we? Several years passed before I understood what was actually happening. I met a gynaecologist who explained that these were symptoms of the menopause, which I had been plunged into following chemotherapy. I had been living with it for many years, but no one had told me

That was the consequence. I would be at work, using … all my energy, but perhaps not reaching my full potential. And when I started feeling better, I thought, ‘You know what? Women shouldn’t have to feel like this at work. Employers shouldn’t have women struggling so much.’ You mentioned sickness absence, and I think there are many unreported cases because we don’t know or understand enough about women’s health. That was the starting point for establishing Hvild. I quickly realised that competence and knowledge about women’s health are one thing, but my experience of change management – transforming an industry and major projects within a company – is really what women’s health is about. It’s about recognising the opportunity and the potential to improve things. It’s about seeing the opportunity to make a real difference in the workplace and across society. That creates enormous value. So that’s part of the reason we started Hvild. We began with advisory, thinking that we needed to help organisations address women’s health. And that proved to be the right approach, because it was a completely new way of thinking. The digital platform followed later, providing employers with a tool to truly scale up the change. And to scale up our business too, insurance became part of the picture. That was also when Petter came on board – he’s brilliant in that area. Health insurance policies are designed for 75-kilo men who do physical work, while women’s health is barely covered by private health insurance. So there was a fantastic business opportunity there too.

Berge: Assuming it was possible to insure it – which no one had done before. There was no menopause insurance anywhere in the world. So Anita, who is also my wife, hired me – unpaid – to turn this into an insurance product. It was quite a specific brief, and an interesting experience. After 40 years in finance – including heading DNB's asset management business and serving as CEO of SEB Enskilda Banken – I went from being used to the number-one role to being the plus-one. That is an incredibly valuable experience, and I would recommend it to anyone who gets the opportunity. It gives you entirely new perspectives, and it is also quite liberating to be able to say – and simply point to her if something consistently fails to work – 'I just work here.' That was how we got started. We then set out to create health insurance. We had a technical idea of how to do it and developed it to a fairly advanced stage. We are both quite bold, so we persuaded one of the world's largest reinsurance companies, a French company called SCOR, to say, 'Yes, we are willing to cover that risk. We do not fully understand it, and normally we would not do this at all because there is not enough information to underwrite a policy. But we have reached the strategic conclusion that, for the past 100 years, we have treated women very poorly and provided them with services that are nowhere near good enough. We have decided to stop doing that, and we need a pilot project. Norway is limited in size, so there is a limit to how badly it can go. Even though we do not have all the figures, let us just get started.' We thought, 'Fantastic.' We approached every Nordic health insurer, and they were completely uninterested. So it was back to the drawing board, and we said, 'OK, then we will have to do it ourselves.' I once promised myself that I would never start another insurance company, because it is quite a unique undertaking. I had to forget that promise. So we started again, but this time we are doing it differently, using a modern approach called an MGA model. We do everything an insurance company does except carry the risk on our own books. In other words, we are an insurance company without our own balance sheet. We are allowed to use someone else's balance sheet, so we underwrite insurance on someone else's account and at their risk. That is a significant authorisation to receive, so it needs to come from someone who knows you very well and is firmly convinced that you know what you are doing. That was our route forward. With our French friends at SCOR still on board, we set everything up ourselves and received fantastic support from the Norwegian Financial Supervisory Authority. You do not often hear people praise them, but we did. We received our licence within a few weeks and were allowed to go to market. We also got the impression that there are now quite a few women in the Authority's senior management. It felt as though some of them might have spoken to each other and said something along the lines of, 'It's about bloody time.' So they supported us, and we received a cross-border licence that allows us to provide cover throughout the EU from our base in Norway. That is what we are now working to do. Our ambition is to scale from here and, if not take on the whole world, then at least reach large parts of Europe before we are done.

Host: And are you still the only ones doing this?

Berge: We are still the only ones doing this, and in a way, that has now been confirmed. We were recently in Las Vegas for an event called ITC Vegas, the world's largest conference for what is known as insurtech – the use of digital tools and technologies to create insurance solutions. It is a huge event, with 10,000 attendees. Of course, 10,000 people at any event in Las Vegas is a bit of a nightmare, but there you go. We had been tipped off beforehand that we ought to attend because a new list of the world's 50 most promising startups in this field was due to be announced. We knew we had been nominated because we had been interviewed a couple of times, but still. We also knew that the initial pool consisted of around four million companies, so the chances of making it all the way were not exactly ... let's just say we did not celebrate in advance. But then we were advised that it might be a good idea to get ourselves over there. And we made the list. We were selected as one of the 50 startups worldwide with the greatest potential to transform the insurance industry over the next three to five years. And it was repeated everywhere that we still offered the world's only menopause insurance.

Host: Congratulations! It's incredibly exciting to hear about!

Hegge: Thank you so much! I'm very proud of it.

Host: And Håkon, you believe that insurtech, which we're discussing here – it's not a term I'm very familiar with – is actually an area where Norwegian companies should have a good chance of succeeding?

Haugli: Yes, I do. And it is also really exciting to hear how far you have come and what you are doing. It is striking how few insurtech companies we have in Norway. First of all, it is worth remembering that insurance is a huge global industry and a major industry in Norway. Norwegians also have strong digital skills. We are at the forefront of using what we call financial services, as well as other services – including public services – digitally, and I would say we are curious about new things. Norway is often used as a launch market, and there are two reasons for that. One is that Norwegians have high purchasing power, while the other is that we adapt quickly. Electronics, for example, tend to be adopted early in Norway. In this context, that means the conditions are right for start-ups like Hvild, in my view. It is also fantastic to hear that you are winning and receiving this recognition. I think it may be difficult for a Norwegian audience to appreciate just how significant it is, because it is rather like winning an Oscar in a tech industry that is enormous globally. There are also related fields, such as fintech – banking services, for example, although it can include other things too. Then there is the focus on women. I think there is something distinctly Norwegian about it, stretching all the way back to Gro Harlem Brundtland. This focus on health and women feels very Scandinavian, very Nordic. The world now looks to the Nordic countries with admiration because we have an equal society – or at least we have come further than many other countries – and we genuinely care about equality. As I understand it – and I would like to ask you about this – employers are the ones buying your services, is that right? That adds another dimension: being a good employer, the Nordic model and cooperation in the workplace, and, not least, looking after every employee regardless of gender or other factors.

Hegge: There are several ways employers can begin addressing women's health. For some, the starting point is sickness absence figures and the paradox that women have a much higher rate of sickness absence than men. This applies both after women return from maternity leave, when their sickness absence increases by 50 per cent over the following two years, and to older women as they approach the menopause. That is one perspective. Another is employee benefits, where employers may find that their benefits are not entirely fit for purpose. Then there is your profile, right? Are you sustainable? Are you a sustainable employer? Are you a women's-health-friendly employer? Are you recruiting enough women into leadership roles? Are you complying with all the relevant regulations? These begin with the Sustainable Development Goals, and include the Working Environment Act, the Equality and Anti-Discrimination Act, and the duty to take action and report. All of this relates to women's health; we simply have not explored it fully yet. So there are many possible approaches. We have worked with around 40 large organisations, and they are the first to address this. We see a wide range of approaches. Some say, 'OK, we held a presentation on International Women's Day, so tick, we have addressed women's health.' But that is not really how it works. You need to build knowledge and competence. Then you need to ask: 'How can we incorporate this into our tools? How should we approach strategy? What measures should we take?' That is when you truly begin to see the impact and an increase in value creation from addressing women's health.

Host: And what measures are we actually talking about?

Hegge: Well, it's a bit like asking how long a piece of string is, isn't it? In an organisation like yours, which is knowledge-based, certain measures may be appropriate. For example, someone may need more time to concentrate for a period, as suitable deadlines and workloads can vary at different stages of a woman's life. In a large customer service centre, other measures may be more appropriate. If you come to work one day having had no sleep because you have young children, or because you are going through the menopause, you might not be put on the front line when you know there will be a lot of angry callers that day. Perhaps you could work on the chat instead. It's about being aware of how we can make the best use of the capacity we have that day, without medicalising women or treating them like porcelain dolls. We simply need to recognise the differences and consider how we can achieve the best possible outcome for both the woman and the organisation's value creation. So it can vary.

Haugli: Yes, because this is a topic that – health in general, but perhaps women’s health in particular – is still somewhat taboo. I assume part of your advisory work involves helping employers understand how to talk about it. Could you give us a brief insight into the kind of advice you offer? If I were to discuss this with our organisation, what are the dos and don’ts?

Hegge: That’s a very good question, and I’m a strong advocate of taking a fact-based approach. There are differences between men and women. We haven’t talked much about that because our working life is gender-neutral, and this is still reflected to some extent in the language we use. So I strongly believe we should start by building competence. This could involve presentations or training for managers. What exactly is women’s health? How do we define it, how does it affect us, how should we take it into account, and what language should we use? My advice is to share fact-based information on your intranet, use our digital platform, arrange presentations or choose whatever works for you – but develop a shared language around it. Then it no longer feels so daunting or stigmatised. I think that’s the most important place to start: sharing clear, fact-based, evidence-based information with everyone.

Haugli: Yes – good tip!

Berge: We take a very practical approach to this: how do you handle that conversation? We started by thinking about a 32-year-old male economist in his first management role who suddenly has to talk to a woman old enough to be his mother about whether she might be going through the menopause. We thought that must be the very definition of an awkward situation for both parties, so we spent a lot of time exploring it and developing useful advice and tips. We then presented it to a large bank with many male managers of that age. And they gave us a proper telling-off! They completely rejected that assumption. It might have been an issue for us oldies, but not for them at all. They talked about this all the time. All we could say was, 'OK, fantastic, then we don't need to spend time on that.' But something is happening here. We also see that in knowledge-based businesses, particularly those competing fiercely for talent, such as the tech industry, these benefits are important recruitment tools. Being able to offer the best terms to the brightest women is a real advantage. And much of this is actually coming from the US. We have had a couple of interesting experiences in Norway with Norwegian subsidiaries of international tech companies, where someone at head office decided it was time to look at how they support their female employees outside the US. If you are a tech company based on the California coast, there is a good chance that you offer excellent employee benefits for women. They may receive support with egg freezing, IVF treatment and all sorts of other things. In a way, this forms part of the story these companies tell their shareholders about why they can attract the best people. Then someone presumably thought, 'Perhaps we should check whether this is actually the case everywhere else we operate too.' They come to Europe and discover that it is not like that at all. We are nowhere near. That sets powerful forces in motion. Someone suddenly says, 'We are making promises to our shareholders that we are not keeping. You silly Europeans simply have to do something about this.' And that is where organisations like ours come into their own. Suddenly, we start receiving calls from people who have been told by San Francisco that they are not competitive in this area. They need to do something about it, preferably yesterday. We are pleased to receive enquiries like that, but they are also an indication that something is changing, because the competition for talent is so intense. Competition for the most highly qualified people is fierce, and failing to retain women is simply tragic. In the legal profession, most newly hired trainee solicitors are women. Then something happens as they become more senior. Firms have spent a great deal of money developing them and their talents, giving them opportunities to work with experienced lawyers, partners and senior female lawyers. But when they reach the point where they should be ready to step up, many women – perhaps even the majority – say, 'No, thank you. I no longer have the confidence.' And very often, that is linked to entering early menopause and everything that entails – the timing often coincides. If the managing partner at that law firm has never heard of the menopause, he has a problem. They are simply left baffled: 'We have invested so much time and money, and now they don't want to?'

Host: Do you recommend that companies develop a women's health strategy? What should such a strategy include?

Hegge: What I see – or what we see among Norwegian employers – is that it depends somewhat on their demographics and where they need to start. If you have a lot of younger women, you might focus more specifically on menstrual health and fertility. If you have a more mature workforce – as many employers do – you might start with a menopause strategy. For us, our women’s health strategy is about enabling women to continue developing their potential, regardless of their stage of life. You can link this to your life-stage policy as part of your people and HR strategies. Women’s health is therefore often considered alongside everything else you already have in place, while making it clear that enabling women to fulfil their potential, regardless of their stage of life, is part of the strategy.

Haugli: I find this incredibly exciting to hear about. It makes me think … well … how do we view women? You have touched on this too, because when we assess a business case, we often ask: who are you solving a problem for? And does it have the potential to scale? We need to remind ourselves of something that may seem obvious, but is still worth saying: we are talking about half, perhaps more than half, of the population. In the workplace, one of several factors is that we tend to assume everyone is the same and that men and women have exactly the same needs. That is one side of it. The other is that women are still somewhat under-represented in the workplace. We at Innovation Norway recently reached the point where we have more female than male employees. It is almost exactly fifty-fifty, but I think we are now at 51–49, or is it 52? It is simply a reminder that this is the case in many workplaces, particularly knowledge-based workplaces. That means we need to think differently. Your idea also has other dimensions: in a way, it addresses both financial and many other challenges at company level, as well as at societal level. For society, as you have indirectly touched on, sickness absence clearly carries significant costs. Some people also leave work because remaining in employment becomes too difficult, and the cost of that is enormous. If we can make use of the tools you offer, it will benefit people's quality of life, companies – in terms of costs, recruitment and more – and society as a whole. So there is every reason to applaud this and express our enthusiasm. I hope everyone listening to this podcast visits Hvild – with a 'd' – dot … is it no? … and takes a look.

Host: Yes, we've talked a little about your advisory services and the insurance side of the business. We also need to discuss the digital platform. Its aims are quite ambitious: to increase motivation and loyalty – among men too. It will help attract, retain and develop expertise and talent, reduce the costs associated with staff turnover, recruitment and training new employees and, not least, reduce sickness absence. It's fantastic that a ...

Hegge: … Modesty aside!

Host: … all of this can be done through the digital platform. Tell us a little more about it and how businesses use it too!

Hegge: I can do that. I just need to take a slight detour. On our platform, we have something called the partner guide, which is about ... how should you support your partner through the menopause, for example, or someone experiencing cyclical health issues? Usage of that page peaks at three in the morning. And that is ... something you might laugh about, but it is actually very sad, because so many people struggle when their partner has symptoms but does not understand what they are. Perhaps they start grumbling at each other, and life begins to get a little difficult. So that is part of what you will find there. But this platform is very much about knowledge of women's health, as well as what we can do to improve our working environment. You mentioned the wider impact on society, and we know that one in five women do not apply for promotion at the company where they work because they have lost their confidence. A bit like I mentioned earlier, you know – you feel very small. Nineteen per cent choose to work part-time. But the figures show – both from a survey we conducted and from the UK – that when women understand women's health, know how it affects them and can seek help, they choose to apply for leadership positions and to work full-time rather than part-time. It is also about the leadership perspective. The comment I hear most often when I deliver leadership training comes when I can see the penny drop. They look at me and say, 'You know, if I had known this earlier, I would have been a better leader.' That reflects some of our own experience, but the figures show it too, particularly those from the UK and Australia, where they have been working on this for some time. They demonstrate what knowledge and competence can achieve. That is why we are quite bold when we talk about the digital platform, which also offers a great many practical tools for risk assessments and other purposes – very practical tools. How can you incorporate this into a performance review? How can you have that conversation as a manager? And so on.

Berge: We have also designed it so that it can be used as a course, which is one of the advantages of doing this digitally. You just adjust a few settings, and suddenly you have a course complete with Q&A, results and everything else. We also use it for certification. If an organisation wants employees to develop specialist expertise in women's health, they can use the platform for that too, so it is a very flexible tool. You can use it as it is by subscribing to the platform and making it available to all employees. That is one model. Insurance customers get it as part of their package, as it is included in their insurance. Or you can use it as inspiration; we are completely open to that too, because much of the content is also freely available online. You can find quite a lot simply by visiting our regular website, and we are entirely comfortable with that. We also use it as inspiration for large organisations, particularly very large organisations that prefer to have their own digital solutions. We offer them the opportunity to use our platform as a source of inspiration, and perhaps as a source of information too, which they can then package however they wish. But it is a bold statement, and we completely agree. Still, you have to be ambitious.

Haugli: Just to return to the insurance for a moment. Norway has some large insurance companies, after all. Why has no one done this before? And why is there so little interest in it now?

Berge: There are probably two sides to it, and one is that it has always been this way. And this is not just a Norwegian phenomenon; it is the same all over the world. We have not found good women's health insurance anywhere. This probably stems from the idea that health insurance is for a man who does a lot of manual work and weighs just under 80 kilos. That is who it was designed for. And then, particularly in Norway and Sweden, some additional services have been introduced which, as we rather flippantly put it, help senior management stay fit for the Birkebeiner race. There is a lot of physiotherapy and that sort of thing, which is absolutely excellent, but it costs a lot of money. And it may not be a particularly good investment for the company. But everything has been built around that, and then suddenly you have women whose needs are completely different from those addressed by health insurance. Women rarely have major prostate problems themselves, for example, but they often face challenges related to the menopause and cyclical conditions, and these are largely excluded from cover. There is probably a financial calculation behind this: we, the insurance company, are terrified of extending cover too far for female-specific conditions, because we might suddenly be left with the bill for IVF treatment, which is incredibly expensive. We are not prepared to take that risk, so it is better simply to close that door and pretend the problem does not exist. That is more or less how it is. This is partly a legacy of the past. Definitely partly that. Some of it is prejudice, and some of it may be straightforward financial considerations, also linked to the fact that health insurance is not a profitable product for insurance companies. They generally lose money on it, so making it even more expensive by expanding the cover is not exactly an appealing proposition. As a startup focused on disrupting things, we say: well, then you simply have to do it differently. It is not about doing the same thing better; you have to rethink it completely. What does a company paying for health insurance actually need? It needs as few people as possible to become ill, and those who do become ill to return to work healthy and well as soon as possible. Physiotherapy comes some way down the list, and the Birkebeiner race comes much further down the list than those priorities.

Haugli: We had a brief chat before this podcast conversation, and you showed us a very interesting graphic illustrating how men's and women's health journeys differ throughout their lives. Could you give us a little taste of what it shows?

Hegge: Yes, exactly. It starts from the fact that we women win the lottery when it comes to longevity, because we live longer than men. But where things are a little more difficult for us is that we spend 25 per cent more of our lives in poor health. When I mention that figure, it is easy to assume that this happens towards the end of life. But that is not the case. There is a significant difference between men and women, and the figure illustrates how men tend to remain fairly healthy throughout their lives before their health declines towards the end.

Haugli: Yes, it looked like it went straight downhill from around the age of 50.

Hegge: Not that early, though, but... And then there are women, where the signs of ill health begin, in a way, when we have our first period. And then there are cyclical health issues throughout our lives. There is pregnancy and infertility, unless you are lucky enough to simply stay healthy, and then the menopause comes back like a boomerang for quite a few of us. So there is a very big difference compared with...

Haugli: … But the reward comes at the end, because it showed that you get around 20 good years right at the end of your life.

Hegge: Yes, but I think we can do better than that because prevention is possible. There are treatments that can help women feel well. We can change this illustration …

Haugli: Absolutely. This is not an argument for women to live in poor health, but there was such a stark contrast between the final years of men's and women's lives.

Hegge: Yes, it is. And that illustration has actually attracted a great deal of attention around the world. Because, in a way, it gives a visual representation of something many people know but struggle to fully grasp.

Haugli: No, because it is – you understand it intuitively when you show it, but I’ve never thought about it that way.

Berge: It was picked up by a prominent international figure, a female influencer who is also behind a unicorn in women's health. She saw the chart at a seminar Anita held here in Oslo earlier this year and was so enthusiastic that she went back to her hotel room, posted it on social media and recreated the chart. She said, 'This is the smartest thing I've ever seen,' and then it really took off. The chart has now travelled around the world five or six times. It will probably reach a million views, and for those of us who aren't part of the usual influencer world, those numbers are completely absurd. We're happy if 300 people take a look, and now it's appearing in all sorts of contexts. The UK's National Health Service, the NHS, uses it in its strategic discussions. The Singaporean authorities use it in their assessments, as do the Hong Kong Medical Society and universities – you name it. So many people use it that we issued general permission to reproduce it, provided they credit us as the source, and we've made the entire data source open source so that anyone can use it. So it has ... it has made a big difference for us, and we're delighted that it's being used so widely, because it highlights exactly what you're saying: the reality is different from what people assume. We've also said that if you look at the chart, you'll see many dark areas representing the periods when women experience ill health. If we could reduce those periods to the same level as men's ill health, the overall impact for Norway would be like suddenly discovering a city the size of Drammen where everyone was in full-time employment – 35,000 additional full-time equivalents handed to us on a plate. Not because everyone became healthier, but simply because women were no worse off than men. That's the potential impact on the national economy, not to mention the impact on each individual woman – obviously.

Host: It is incredibly exciting to talk about women's health, and time flies when the conversation is this engaging. Before we wrap up, I would like to hear a little more about what lies ahead for Hvild. You started in 2023, and we have played a role in your journey. Earlier this year, you were highly critical of how the business support system had treated you, and that included us. That is a good thing! We appreciate people speaking up when something is wrong. So, before we explore where you plan to take the company next – you have now come quite a bit further and received more support from us – what can we learn from working with you as a company?

Hegge: No, I think this is like any other somewhat challenging start-up – it comes down to communication. You know, talking to each other and being a little clearer. Perhaps we should have asked different questions? Perhaps we should have asked a few more times? So I think it is communication, communication, communication. We have now had a very, very good process with you, and as I said earlier, that is not because you have not challenged us. But it has been a very, very constructive and positive process, and that has been important to us, not only in terms of the resources, but also the seal of approval it gives you. So it has been a great process. I think the lesson is simply to keep learning and remain open to new ideas and different ways of doing things – to be open to the highly innovative ideas that emerge, and to listen and be curious about them. That could be one takeaway.

Host: Håkon, this is something you touched on earlier in the podcast: it isn't always easy for us to keep fully up to date with everything that's happening, is it?

Haugli: Well, we are very grateful for the feedback we received, both then and now, and I want to emphasise that we are continually striving to learn and improve. I think it was ... well … communication is incredibly important, and … sometimes things move quickly, and sometimes we as an organisation do not have enough information to fully understand what is in front of us. And I think that, in your case, both of those things happened at the same time. We … what, what is this start-up – what is it really about? So I am very pleased that we have got things back on track, and it is important for me to say, both to you and to everyone else who may be listening, that feedback, including critical feedback, helps us develop as an organisation and improve both what we offer and how we work. No one should ever feel that such feedback is not welcome or allowed. And I am very glad that you gave us the opportunity to make adjustments and return to a positive and constructive dialogue, because that is important. It is exciting to see what lies ahead for you, and if there is anything we can do to support you in the future, we would be very happy to help.

Host: So, you now have a licence to provide insurance services worldwide, but which market will you enter first?

Berge: Yes. Like most Norwegians, we’ll probably go to Sweden first, and everything fits there. Everything is essentially the same, so we can do in Sweden what we do in Norway, which puts it very high on our list. We have a map, which we showed Håkon this morning, and it has a great many flags on it, and … but there’s one thing we care deeply about: there are very few Norwegian companies in our field, the insurtech field – combining technology and insurance. There are many so-called unicorns in this field worldwide. In fact, fintech and insurtech account for one of the largest groups of unicorns. Just a few days ago, British company Revolut received a valuation that makes it … means it is worth twice as much as DNB. It is also a bank, except that it hasn’t operated as one. And DNB has been around for 100 years. So that says something about the potential for leverage. But our ambition is to do this from Norway, because it has become a point of pride for us. After we made that list and received all that attention in the US – and when you’re among 10,000 Americans, 1,000 of whom are venture capitalists – you get a lot of calls from potential investors. One of the first things foreign investors tend to tell us is, ‘Yes, this is incredibly exciting, but you need to start somewhere other than Norway.’ And that … is often linked to perceptions created by the media: foreigners who know something about Norway or the Nordic region have the impression that it is much harder to get things done here than elsewhere. We completely disagree, and in a sense, making that list is proof of it. There aren’t many other Nordic companies on it either, so we say we’re going to do this for Norway. It has become a point of pride.

Host: That's good to hear, and on that note, we'll bring this episode to a close.

Haugli: I just want to wish you the very best of luck – or, as they say, break a leg …

Hegge and Berge: Thanks a million!

Haugli: … going forward, and thank you for joining us on the podcast. We look forward to following your journey and are really rooting for you to become the first insurtech company from the Nordics.

Host: Thank you, Anita Hegge and Petter Berge from Hvild, and thank you to Håkon Haugli. My name is Kjetil Svorkmo Bergmann, and we'll be back with another episode of Innopodden.